FULL TRANSCRIPT
Slava Rubin (00:00)
In this episode of Smart Humans, we talk with Anna Joo Fee who's co-founder and CEO of Goodfin, the platform that allows you to get access to pre-IPO companies. We discuss the macro, what's going on with recession or potentially how AI could impact jobs. What will this have to do with rates and where the economy is headed? But more importantly, we talk about 2026 as potentially massive year for pre-IPO, which companies are coming out, which companies won't. Will we get a surprise from SpaceX now that they bought XAI?
and what can we see expected for the years to come. She finishes off with a really big surprise for her predictions for three years out and which pick you potentially can make with her.
Slava Rubin (01:06)
Hello and welcome to the latest episode of Smart Humans. I'm excited for today's guest. We're gonna be talking about the world of pre-IPO and all of these companies that are private doing big things. With us today is CEO and co-founder of Goodfin, Anna Joo Fee. Welcome to the show.
Anna Joo Fee (01:23)
Thank you, Slava. Awesome to be here.
Slava Rubin (01:25)
Absolutely, so we always like to start in the beginning, which is how did you even get into the world of alternative investments? Take us back to college, high school, growing up, how you were born, your parents, you name it. What were the influences of how you got to being into this world of alternative investments?
Anna Joo Fee (01:43)
⁓ So for me, the entry point was 2017. It was actually my first startup. So professionally, I started my career as a lawyer at a big Wall Street law firm in New York City, working as a litigator, big financial cases. So really like kind of adjacent to the space and, you know, being in finance and regulatory has definitely been something I've been comfortable with for that reason. But really, I didn't learn what like
private equity was and venture was really until I got deep into it in 2017. So I started a company, I had the itch to start a startup and had left the law firm and started with an acquaintance of mine who had come from Goldman Sachs. And so our legal and sort of business background fit nicely into this idea that
we had kicked around about a trading platform for really big LPs and very large private equity funds. And so it was very complex to build. It's obviously related to what we do now. But that experience taught me a lot about just fund managers, the world of private equity, building a startup really, it did scratch the edge. I loved it. It taught me a lot about venture.
And now fast forward seven, eight years and what we do at Goodfin is certainly related and I learned a lot from building in that space that I use and apply today. But I think the market has really matured a lot, exploded in some areas, which I'm sure we'll talk about. And that was really part of the reason why I started here with Goodfin as well.
Slava Rubin (03:19)
So in 2017, that's when you started your first entrepreneurial venture. What was the name of that?
Anna Joo Fee (03:24)
called Liquidly, which is believe it or not a real word. So not liquidity, but liquidly. And really it was about liquidity. It was about giving very large institutional LPs in these large PE funds the ability to trade out from time to time. And know, illiquidity in private markets, it's a feature, not a bug, generally speaking. So you have just like a host of issues tied up in that and friction.
And the goal was to build a much more seamless standardized trading platform for these LPs to be able to do that. so A, liquidity then I would say was like pretty early days and seeing like this pain point of like, when would even a very large investor with deep pockets, even for those investors, when do they need liquidity? you started to see even in 2017 that need in some spots.
And I also learned from that experience that in terms of capital, there was a budding interest, I would say, in, we can call it retail, but it tends to be like more high net worth and accredited investor plus sources of wealth. But I would say those were also early days for what is now Goodfin, where we serve accredited investors.
Although we do have a range of customers, also have family office clients and we've grown immensely, but we started off serving like basically a version of me, like an accredited investor who wanted to get into this like world private equity or venture. But how do you do that as an individual? It's just like, where do you start? You need the access, you need the lawyers, you need the diligence, you need the diversification, right? Like it's got to be packaged in the right way, just right for you to fit.
to fit in your portfolio, all of these things. And that experience with Liquidly first introduced me to, I guess, like this perspective of managers where they were like, we would love to tap into that, but we also are not well equipped to do that, right? Like that's not what these managers are good at. Let them pick the assets, let them do what they do. And, you know, there was this need that I saw to bridge over to the individual. And I think it's like all the more stronger and powerful today, right?
Slava Rubin (05:43)
where
you launched in 2017 for Liquidly a while back. You were coming up with the idea in 2016, is that fair?
Anna Joo Fee (05:46)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I mean, we probably launched in like 2018. Like I think 2017 was when I like started. Yeah. So it was like 2018, 2019. You know, that was sort of like, um, that era. And I was still in New York at the time. And then in 2019, I moved to California and really started itching to move on to my next thing. I will say like, one of the lessons I learned from doing my first startup was like as intellectually.
Slava Rubin (05:53)
Okay, that was your building here.
Anna Joo Fee (06:21)
interesting as that was for me. I knew with Goodfin, I wanted to build something I wanted. And you know, the thing that gets me up like every day, and so excited to do this every day is because it's like what I want in the world and I'm the customer. So that was a big part of like, why, you know, I have been building Goodfin the way it is for this ICP, which is like the accredited investor.
Slava Rubin (06:46)
What
does ICP mean for the audience?
Anna Joo Fee (06:49)
yes, I think it means ideal customer profile. I could be off there, sorry. ⁓ This is what happens like, yes.
Slava Rubin (06:53)
We'll go with that for this discussion. Just to zoom in
on that moment where you're still a lawyer looking to become an entrepreneur, how did that spark? It's one thing to be like, here's an interesting idea. It's another thing to give up the safety of the corporate world, let's call it, and then move to the entrepreneurial world. Can you just give us a perspective on what is it that made you actually pull the trigger to literally make that move?
Anna Joo Fee (07:11)
Yeah, totally.
Yeah, you know, it took some time. I wish I could say it was like one moment, but I think by the time you do that very scary thing and jump off the cliff, the truth is it's been years in the making, right? Like just thinking about it and wondering. I had a lot of friends as early as college, right? Who had gone out to ⁓ the Bay Area. They were part of like Facebook's early days and.
I remember at various points feeling like I'm living in this world that my peers are creating. Like I felt like I was reacting and I was a litigator. So like talk about reacting, right? It was like my job to fight and to litigate. And it was, actually loved my job. I was not one of these lawyers who hated big law and who I thought it was like high stakes. I loved like preparing for trial. There's a lot of parallels I think with what I do now. But at the end of the day, I think like this desire to
like create is something that I really enjoy and is a big, I think it's the main thing that I find fulfilling. Like having a product that we put out in the world that people have invested all this money literally in, it gives me goosebumps, right? And it just, didn't exist. And I think like that creator itch was not really scratched at a law firm.
⁓ And that's the big one that is very fulfilling for me personally.
Slava Rubin (08:43)
That's
awesome. Love the creation. So turning the page here, the way people traditionally think about investments is 60 % public markets, 40 % bonds, 0 % alternative investments. Obviously we here on this show are trying to educate everybody about that 0%. So it'll be more than zero. Hopefully it'll be a five, 10, 20, who knows how much percent. If you're crazy like me, it's closer to like 90%. So we'd like to know about our guest which is you, Anna.
Anna Joo Fee (08:49)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Bye bye.
Slava Rubin (09:12)
So what is your public equities, bonds, alternative investments, three numbers for your 100 % of net worth? You don't have to tell us where your net worth is. And let's exclude your Goodfin actual equity because that's an unfair thing to discuss. So let's take that out. How do you think about the allocation of your net worth across those three buckets? One, public equities, two bonds, three alternatives as a massive basket by itself.
Anna Joo Fee (09:28)
Okay. Okay.
Yeah, thanks for clarifying the Goodfin equity element because that would definitely make it, you know, well over 80 % just for that. So excluding that, it is more balanced. I will say I don't do that much fixed income and bonds. This just hasn't been a big, I think if you can't tell by what I do for a living, I generally like to invest in things
that have more growth potential. And because I have spent so much time in the world of private equity and venture, I think I just naturally have a deeper interest in that. And that is, for me personally, more of my money goes. Equities-wise, it's still about half. Depending on the time, it does fluctuate. I invest in a lot of our offerings. I wish I could invest in every single one. It's just a matter of limited liquidity.
Because of what I do ⁓ with Goodfin, I would say the majority of my holdings are in private equity and venture and these pre-IPO companies. ⁓ I don't think that's normal. That's not normal.
Slava Rubin (10:40)
Sorry, would you say you're about 50
% public, about 50 % alternatives?
Anna Joo Fee (10:47)
I think over, yes, it's not zero in bonds, but it would be, it's like less than 5 % in bonds. And then I would say it fluctuates with alts depending on, you know, what I'm doing in that quarter, but yeah, somewhere between 50 to 60%. The majority is actually in alts. And I don't think that that's like necessarily what everyone should do, right? I find it interesting that you do, but.
Slava Rubin (11:08)
No, no, course, it's non-investment advice.
Okay, what I'm hearing without putting words in your mouth, 45 % public, 5 % bonds, 50 % alternative investments. If we're going to zoom into that 50 % alternative investments and blow it up across the various asset classes, this being pre IPO venture, which is probably gonna be a majority of your stuff, crypto, private credit, real estate, or collectibles, how would you think you split up across those?
Anna Joo Fee (11:12)
because of what I do, that's what makes sense.
Uh-huh.
Slava Rubin (11:41)
for your 100 % of alternative investments? Is it 100 % pre-IPOs, zero everything else, or is there a mix of everything else at all?
Anna Joo Fee (11:50)
It's, I would say over 90 % in either pre-IPO, early stage venture. I'm including kind of like venture funds or private equity funds. So like holistically private equity is 90 % plus. Those are, that's just the asset classes that again, I know the best, I'm deep in and what we offer on Goodfin right now. I would say like art and
You know, I do love handbags, but I don't I don't approach that with an investor mindset Both of those are sort of consumption for me and what I like and I don't have enough Honestly to even for that to to be meaningful in the in the bucket anyway
Slava Rubin (12:34)
But
in last few years, handbags and collectibles, whiskey and watches all have been rolling.
Anna Joo Fee (12:38)
I mean,
I'm very intrigued by them. So I do think like it will become more interesting buckets of what I do and perhaps I could fit as well. But for now it's pretty limited.
Slava Rubin (12:50)
Tell us about one handbag that's interesting,
that has made me more on the investment side, even though it's for consumption.
Anna Joo Fee (13:00)
I would say like my classic Chanel quilted bags are good from an investment perspective. I don't really own, you know, like a Birkin. Oh, Chanel. Well, they have like numbers. It depends. I just mean quilted, like the pattern on it is there. Yes, they're classic and they make a lot of different versions of it in lot of different sort of styles. But
Slava Rubin (13:08)
Sorry, quilted How do you spell that? How do you spell that? How do you spell that? You know what? What was the quilted?
quote you.
Anna Joo Fee (13:27)
My understanding of handbag investment value is like generally Hermes or Chanel will retain the most value. And then even within those brands, of course, they're more classic styles will tend to do that. But I also like to buy fine edgy things that makes me happy. And so I'm really not buying handbags so that they can like sit in my closet and just accrue value. So.
Slava Rubin (13:47)
I love it. were thinking we were talking pre-IPO but here we are talking about Chanel. I love it. This is why we like this show. So let's
talk about the economy, which is very open ended question. Take it wherever you'd like. You're a smart person. You see a lot of things. You have to understand the trends. The market's a bit volatile. That's probably an understatement right now. You have crypto down. have, you know, Amazon just dropped or you have, you know, AI doing great. Like all kinds of crazy things are happening. Just give me an open ended and a point of view. Where are we in the market? Where are we in the economy?
Take that wherever you'd like.
Anna Joo Fee (14:19)
Yeah, okay, I think it's been a pretty volatile few days or generally there's been, you know, market volatility, of course, but overall, look, if I look at 2025 and what we've seen on Goodfin and where we feel the sentiment is, it's pretty, you know, strong, it's bullish. I don't think there's much dispute about just like the enormous paradigm shift and value creation that AI is bringing.
Of course, there's questions about valuation and sort of money going around the ecosystem and capex and all very valid questions. But look, we're in a really exciting time for investing, for building. On Goodfin, we have tremendous interest, not just in AI and the foundational companies, which of course, several of them are quite mature now and potentially IPOing soon. But we've got defense super hot.
and geopolitical tensions, I think, course, play a big factor in that. robotics, increasing interest in robotics. really, it's even FinTech is back a little bit, but it depends sort of which companies you might be talking about there. So I think overall, there's just enormous interest in these pre-IPO companies. There's a lot that people are hoping for, I think, in 2026 and beyond. And it'll be really
interesting at a minimum to see how this shakes out, right? But pretty big milestones for what could come, right? SpaceX and we just acquired XAI. So there's never a dull day ever these days, I will say, in the pre-IPO world.
Slava Rubin (16:01)
So we'll talk more about pre-EPO
in just a second. Let's first just finish off on the economy. So I'm gonna put you on lightning round here, some very specific questions. So 12 months from now, again, non-investment advice, you don't have to be the perfect predictor, but we ask folks, we'd love to put you on the spot. Which is 12 months from now, will there be a recession or no recession? Yes or no?
Anna Joo Fee (16:04)
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
No, I don't think a recession.
Slava Rubin (16:24)
So 12 months from now, will inflation be up, down, or flat?
Anna Joo Fee (16:27)
Mm-hmm.
Ooh, I think it'll be similar. I'm not sure up or down, but I think that's the big question with rates, right? And like, okay, that they'll hold.
Slava Rubin (16:41)
That was going be my next question, is, what's the thing you inflation?
So you're thinking flat for inflation?
Anna Joo Fee (16:48)
I think so because I think it's, you know, there's like no movement right now on the rates. And I think that's likely as of, this moment that we're talking. So yeah, that would be my, my bet.
Slava Rubin (17:00)
Unemployment, up, down, or flat?
Anna Joo Fee (17:02)
So, I mean, we just saw like the Amazon news and it's not the first one, right? So I think this will be the year where we start to see companies sort of shifting because of AI kind of coming to the surface. That being said, I think if you're talking about really big companies and enterprises, for them to implement anything meaningful in AI, they're still doing a lot of hiring. It might be like,
reallocation of things starting to happen. Like we're going to have an evolution across our labor force over the coming years. And I think like this could be the year where we start to see some of those things where we're going to look back a few years from now and be like, ⁓ yes, like that, that this is why. that being said, I don't think it's going to be like a huge thing. Like we're not going to have like crazy, you know, unemployment, joblessness.
⁓ Fundamentals still seem pretty good. There's a lot of investment in AI that is happening and should happen. And it just takes time, right? I think with a lot of the AI workflows, like you need to change human behavior even more than just having the tech work. And that is even like a tech startup like us, and we're all AI, like even for us, like day to day.
changing your habits, trying new tools, all of these things. It requires really intentional investment and dedication. And I hear a lot from people working with these bigger companies that that's just going to take longer than we all might initially have thought.
Slava Rubin (18:33)
So you walked us through the upscaling and transition with AI, how it could happen in aggregate. might mean that it would be flat on jobs or it might mean the aggregate is net down on jobs. So I still ask you the specific question a year from now, unemployment up, down or flat?
Anna Joo Fee (18:37)
Yeah.
I think it could be slightly up, slightly, but I don't think, yeah, there'll be sort of massive crises. Yeah.
Slava Rubin (18:50)
Sorry.
Okay. And all of this
aggregates into, you know, no recession, flat inflation, slightly up jobs. What happens with rates a year from now? Are we from today?
Anna Joo Fee (19:04)
I think we'll be a little bit lower, just like.
maybe one, two cuts, I think is saying, yeah, yeah, right. But we're not gonna be in that like free money era. I don't know where again.
Slava Rubin (19:08)
So 25 or 50 basis points. Okay.
Trump's not going to be able to get his way. Trump's not going
to get his way with the new Fed Chair.
Anna Joo Fee (19:22)
I think it's just hard. I just think that's hard to get done rapidly just because of the bureaucracy. we also have midterms this year, so we'll see how that affects things. But yeah, there's a lot of factors.
Slava Rubin (19:36)
final lightning round question, which is the stock market. So the QQQ or, you know, let's call it NYSE. Is it up, down or flat 12 months from today?
Anna Joo Fee (19:49)
think it'll be up. Yeah, I think it'll be up.
Slava Rubin (19:52)
a standard 8 % year over year or better or worse.
Anna Joo Fee (19:55)
It that's,
that's, think a little bit better than the standard. I also have hopes that some, and I know we'll talk about it, but some of what we might see with the IPOs could, could boost that as well. But yeah, a little, a little up.
Slava Rubin (20:10)
Perfect
transition. So let's talk about Goodfin. What is Goodfin? Not everybody knows about it. So what is Goodfin and what can my audience be doing with Goodfin?
Anna Joo Fee (20:22)
So at Goodfin, we are an AI native wealth platform where our focus is offering investments in private markets and mostly around, you know, the asset classes that I mentioned, venture private equity, these days, heavy concentration in pre IPO companies, because that's really what our users want and where we think there is tremendous upside potential. Right. And so if you are an accredited investor, you're kind of on your wealth building journey. It's
But you're sort of like, you don't have millions and a lot of deep connections and the time quite frankly, to be researching, diligencing, structuring deals. Private markets is not that easy. It's especially with these types of opportunities in pre-IPO, which is why we have focused on that so heavily. And the idea is to give that user the ability to start to build that portfolio or to grow it.
in a high trust, like heavily curated, right? Because your partners matter, the deals matter. There's wide performance dispersion. We focus a lot on like, who are we working with? We want Goodfin to be the place where like, you know, we've done all that hard work and we have a high bar. So we're not trying to have hundreds of companies on our platform. In fact, at any given time we don't, there's probably five to 10 live opportunities, but that we're very focused on the names that we believe are going to grow with the best partners in the ecosystem.
That's really our focus. And fundamentally, it is because like our bigger vision is not to be a trading platform. We're not a trading platform. We are a wealth platform. This is about giving people the opportunity to invest and grow that part of their portfolio with a more long-term view. And with the AI and all the technology that we're building around it, it's to like make that an experience that is also about like learning and education and research.
And AI can unlock so much of that. So we like to say like, it's not just that we give you AI investment opportunities, but like we like walk the walk too, right? Like we're in it using everything cutting edge to make your investment experience better. And so all of that, it's about like investing in these high growth, you know, potentially alpha, I think it's hard to find alpha. Especially if you're just a regular credit investor, like where are you going to, you know, there's not a lot of places.
And this is one of those places, obviously not a guarantee, obviously, know, risk. But that's why we have focused here and we're really, you know, looking to double, triple down on that, but also this year and beyond watching like other wealth and financial tools too for this user.
Slava Rubin (22:58)
So you've mentioned accredited investors a couple times, so it's not for the retail investor, is that correct?
Anna Joo Fee (23:03)
Not right now. We have opened up our AIs so you can come in and use our AI and learn about private markets, ask whatever questions we're pulling from, multiple data sources. have like news agents that will like filter and summarize and sort of send you news. There's a lot of things that you can do, but you can't invest. Our offerings right now are accredited investor only. That will likely change. But we've started of course with the
sort of obvious place and what is already from a regulatory standpoint approved.
Slava Rubin (23:34)
And what's the minimum investment?
Anna Joo Fee (23:37)
There is no minimum if you're a premium member. So we have a membership program where for $750 a year, it gives you the flexibility. I like to frame it as flexibility because I think the tough part about pre-IPO and these private markets investments is like, even if the minimum seems accessible, you can only do it so many times, right? You're going to get tapped out of what you can do in a year. It's not like Uber or DoorDash where you can just do it multiple times a day.
And so for people who are thinking about like, I have this kind of budget potentially over this year to allocate to privates, it just gives you complete flexibility to do that. And we don't always know what deals are coming when, right? Like there's constant sort of new things that are happening, timelines we can't predict, companies raise new rounds before we would expect them, mergers happen. So.
giving people the flexibility I think is really important when you're talking about an individual investor with a limited sort of allocation budget. And that was really the goal. It's a product I would have wanted.
Slava Rubin (24:40)
So let's talk like on behalf of one of our listeners and I'll act like the investor. So if I want to join, it's $750 to get an annual membership, is that right?
Anna Joo Fee (24:50)
It's $750 for the year to have no minimums when you invest. You can join at no cost. We do screen. It is like an invite and referral based system just because like that helps us preserve the integrity of the deals. we are community oriented platform and the managers we work with, they like that about us. we're not sort of like out there kind of
Slava Rubin (24:56)
OK.
Anna Joo Fee (25:19)
We're very intentional, I guess, about how we educate, cultivate, and bring in our membership. That being said, doesn't cost anything. And you can invest all apart. So each deal, the minimum will range from about 5 to 25 K And so you can do that and wait until you're ready to invest. It won't cost you anything. You can use our AI. You can run deep research reports. can do everything else is no charge.
But when you invest, we take a fee, usually a one-time small upfront fee. And then if you join our premium membership, that gives you the ability to invest with no minimums. We also have a reserve tier, is kind of like Amex Black and Amex Platinum, right? The reserve tier is for people who are investing typically six figures plus in a year. And for that, there is reduced fees.
Slava Rubin (26:09)
Got it, so let's use SpaceX as like an example. For the sake of this conversation, let's assume you have SpaceX on the platform. Do you have SpaceX at the moment or? Okay, perfect, so let's just talk about SpaceX. So if I want to invest in SpaceX, my choice is either to do any amount with no minimum, but I have to be a member for 750, or if I'm not a member, I then get ⁓ whatever amount is the minimum. So for SpaceX, do know what it is?
Anna Joo Fee (26:10)
make sense of that point.
It's 25,000.
Slava Rubin (26:37)
Okay, so 25,000.
So let's say I invested the 25,000. So what will be the fees on that? So what's like my all in cost to come in for the 25K into SpaceX tomorrow?
Anna Joo Fee (26:41)
Mm-hmm.
So I can't publicly discuss all the terms just from a regulatory issue, but I can say that like we typically charge a one to 5 % upfront fee. Usually it's two to 3 % one time for good fit. Now, if there are underlying fund managers that we're working with, they will typically have their own fees and we are transparent about that. We tell you what they are and know full upfront what you'll be paying.
Slava Rubin (26:51)
Okay.
Okay.
And
is there a carry as well or no carry with your model?
Anna Joo Fee (27:17)
for it depends usually. ⁓
Slava Rubin (27:20)
Let's say it's the 25K for SpaceX
where I'm not a member.
Anna Joo Fee (27:26)
So again, like not just because I can't publicly discuss this particular deal, but I can say generally speaking with SpaceX, usually there is a carry. We work with really reputable managers and a little bit of a hot take I have is that lowest fees is not always like the number one thing. Obviously all things equal, you always try for lower fees and fees impact your returns 100%. But especially because of the nature of like
private markets and these pre IPO like super hot companies. It matters so much again, who you work with and that the transaction is legit. honestly, I think a lot of the most legit managers charge carry. I mean, that's what they're in it for. So just a separate aside, but it depends on the deal.
Slava Rubin (28:09)
Absolutely. Do you have any like
metrics that you can share in terms of like how long you've been around, how many customers you have, the AUM or anything that you want to share to give our audience a sense of size?
Anna Joo Fee (28:22)
Yeah, yeah. So we have closed, you know, 80 plus deals at this point. Again, we focus on like the top kind of opportunities. So a lot of them are repeat, right? It's like, instead of going to like company number 50, we'd rather do like five times of something like SpaceX. So within that 80, it's like, I really think, you know, best in class opportunities. It's not just pre IPO. We do, we're YC companies. We do like a mini YC fund. We do,
We've done venture early stage and growth funds as well as private equity funds. So it is more broadly across just private equity holistically. And we, would say like the vast majority of those 80 plus deals have happened over the last like 18 months. Like we've been growing really fast. So we started three or four years ago, but we, you know, really hit our stride. I will say in the last like 18 months,
We have, I won't give a specific number, but thousands of members investing with us regularly. And again, everyone from like their first private markets investment, they've been thinking about it, dipping their toe in all the way to nine figure family offices. And really for us, it's about building a right ecosystem because again, we're very focused on like quality and who our partners are. And a lot of that is relationship driven as well. So being like a good player in the ecosystem is.
really important to us.
Slava Rubin (29:50)
So it's not surprising that your last 18 months has been strong because everybody's talking about pre-I0 and everybody's talking about 2026 is going to be the unlock. So let's just discuss what that all means. Obviously SpaceX just did the partnership with XAI and now it's combined worth one and a quarter billion, one and a quarter trillion, God bless them. You have OpenAI hovering around 800 billion, Anthropic 350 billion and
Anna Joo Fee (29:56)
⁓ yeah. ⁓
Slava Rubin (30:20)
Many more, I just read a story yesterday, Databricks is coming out this year. So what are you thinking is gonna happen this year? What are you particularly excited about?
Anna Joo Fee (30:30)
Yeah, I think All Eyes are on SpaceX and for me that is certainly number one as well. And I think because of what's happened with XAI and their acquisition, it makes it really interesting, right? Like it was a more straightforward story even just a week ago and still super exciting and like, know, trillion five target even then. And now I think it's an AI SpaceX story.
It is more complicated. don't know. And that's why I think it's sort of interesting for us to see because there will be some impact. And I think like we're just sort of starting that dialogue around it, but going public and having more disclosures, transparency, all the public market stuff that comes along with that. Will the XAI acquisition...
muddy that a little bit for SpaceX or delayed a little bit. I think that those are sort of inquiries. But overall, this is super exciting. It's going to be historic. I think for SpaceX itself, everyone's been... It's sort of not that controversial in terms of the strength of their dominance and their financials for Starlink and for the launch business. So now,
kind of introducing this new element of XAI. I think there's a lot to discuss and watch for. So I'm excited about that.
Slava Rubin (32:00)
What are, everybody knows that AI is hot, so it's hard to ask you what's hot. What's not hot or what's less interesting? What are two verticals that are kind of behind? Or if you want to name some companies, that'd be great too.
Anna Joo Fee (32:11)
I think traditional.
Yeah, I think traditional SaaS is, and people have been talking about it for a little while, like what is AI going to do to traditional SaaS legacy models? And I think part of what we're starting to see in the market could reflect that as well. so, yeah, I think if you are a more legacy SaaS type business and you could be very big and sort of very entrenched and
you know, still on the surface doing well or doing okay. I think there's starting to be real questions about like, what is going to sort of happen to your business as AI just reorganizes workflows as it kind of replaces labor, right? Like the traditional model of software being the thing is now shifting to technology now, you know, being able to do these like human-agentive workflows, which is what we.
building at Goodfin as well. And you could just have an entirely new generation of companies that are going to be AI native that will be the sales forces of the future. I think that is one area where there's, I think, real substantive discussion and sentiment about their prospects. And otherwise, I would say,
Yeah, like I did mention that there were certain sectors like like FinTech, honestly, and as a FinTech company, you know, we didn't love it. But like FinTech has has been, you know, it was down, I would say a couple years ago. And it you you see some excitement around it. Like I think AeroBoard, for example, is like a great kind of FinTech 3.0. We have stable coins discussions happening. We have
you know, some interesting new developments. course, anything that's like AI and fintech, think is a little bit of a different category than more legacy fintech. But that would be another area that you've seen kind of like mixed, I would say reception, right? Not as much excitement.
Slava Rubin (34:15)
Yeah, mean, talking about
FinTech, mean, the Brex acquisition, kind of rough, right? Some of those three IPO numbers were pretty high, a lot of excitement, and then the end result, have you seen any pullback from your investors because of that type of result questioning what it could look like, or is it just passed off as, that's just a Brex one-off, who cares, that's FinTech, get me some SpaceX, please, I can't wait to invest in Anduril
Anna Joo Fee (34:22)
Yeah.
Probably more the latter. It's still a lot of enthusiasm for the sectors that just aren't really impacted by that. I also think for people who are deep in it, you saw the writing on the wall for a little while. mean, it was still a great outcome in many ways. It's still huge and it's still a great business that they built and not all, of course, negative.
But yeah, I think like people's minds, quite frankly, were probably already there. And so we didn't see any like new reactive behavior, I would say, because of that. But we don't have a lot of fintech and to be fair on our platform right now.
Slava Rubin (35:23)
What
would you say, given how connected you are to this world, are some of the things that you're seeing that you could share as some insights that is not obvious to the listeners? I would say it is obvious that SpaceX is hot. It is obvious that AI is hot. It is obvious that some of these things are hot. What is less obvious that you can share?
Anna Joo Fee (35:45)
So I think we're just getting into potential vertical applications of AI, right? And I think we're in very early days for that. So what everybody knows are, of course, the OpenAI and the Anthropic and the big foundational models. And they themselves are going into vertical applications and building fast as well. So I think we're going to see
like an explosion of interest and growth in, know, like now who can leverage this AI to build a really big business. And that's very exciting, right? And then we'll start to see things that are just actually in like the company you work or as a consumer, you might be experiencing, right? Like we're just getting started, I think on that unlock into the vertical applications. ⁓
Slava Rubin (36:37)
Sorry,
when you say that, hear, I'm thinking Harvey for legal or open evidence for health. Are you thinking any specific names that you can share?
Anna Joo Fee (36:38)
I
Yeah.
Yeah, those are good examples. It's interesting because I was a lawyer. So I will ask about Harvey time to time. And there's a bunch of other players that are similar. again, like super early days, like how many lawyers are actually utilizing this? It's still mostly about the prospect and the potential and the actual real implementation and real unlock for the professionals I think we haven't seen. And so we're like
When that happens, will be like huge productivity unlocks. And that I think, again, going back to kind of like, well, the humans have to change their behavior too. They actually have to utilize it. They actually have to learn it. They actually have to like embed it into their day to day. That is still early days. So yeah, legal, tons of healthcare applications. Look, it's happening in financial services. That's what we're working on. So really like professional, mean,
developers, like our code is already like 80, 90 % Claude. that was like the lowest hanging fruit. And then I think you're going to see across services, professional services, a lot of these industries really starting to see that impact. then, so yeah, that's what I mean by divertical.
Slava Rubin (38:00)
Awesome,
and then we played the game for the public markets and the macro. How about in the private markets with this pre-IPO? Do you have any hot takes on how many deals are we gonna see? Who do you think is gonna IPO? That most people don't think is gonna IPO. Who do you think is not gonna IPO? That most people think will IPO. Like what's gonna be the one that bombs? Like what, do you have any hot takes? A year from now, a year from now, what are your point of views on hot takes?
Anna Joo Fee (38:21)
I wish I had a crystal ball. my goodness. Yeah.
Slava Rubin (38:29)
in the sphere of your sense.
Anna Joo Fee (38:30)
Yeah,
so I do
Slava Rubin (38:33)
Let me ask this first, will it be as hot as people are hoping you will be or will it be less than that or more than that?
Anna Joo Fee (38:39)
think by calendar year end for 2026, might not, not everything we had hoped for initially might have happened just because I think it'll be hard in terms of like timing to be that fast. but I think into 2027, like if we're talking now about what will happen over 24 months, I do think like that is a much more realistic timeframe. And that's where I think like open AI, Anduril and Anthropic
are very possible, Databricks. I still hope for SpaceX for this year, but again, I...
Slava Rubin (39:16)
You're not holding your breath.
Anna Joo Fee (39:19)
Well, I am as of today, I still am, but I do think like this XAI acquisition has complicated it and it's still like, people are still processing. So I think that will be the first question I have, but you know, Elan has been saying they're on track. Stripe, you know, Stripe is such a great blue chip company and yeah, I,
Slava Rubin (39:35)
How about Stripe?
Anna Joo Fee (39:44)
I don't feel like it's urgent for them and they're working on a lot of stable coin infrastructure, which is very interesting. Yeah, it's never quite as high on the IPO. Like, is it going to IPO next list that I've had? That might be a surprise if they do, you know, we'll be very happy, but I'm I'm not running on it at the moment.
Slava Rubin (40:06)
So you're saying you're surprised that potentially SpaceX will not this year? That's your surprise to look out for?
Anna Joo Fee (40:13)
I think it could be a surprise. I think it could take a little longer. And that's why I say if we're talking into 2027, then I'm like sort of, you know, much more optimistic. Yeah.
Slava Rubin (40:20)
12 months from now.
Perfect. Anything else you want to cover related to Goodfin or the markets?
Anna Joo Fee (40:30)
no, I think like this is, it's an exciting, this is why it's so exciting, right? With so much like to talk about, I'm sure if we were talking next week, there'd be new news to discuss. So yeah.
Slava Rubin (40:40)
Right, You know, like pulling Neuralink into SpaceX
because why not?
Anna Joo Fee (40:48)
I mean, exactly.
Slava Rubin (40:50)
⁓
All jokes aside, you're obviously very smart. You know a lot of information. We all want to be like our guests. So what is it that you're reading, watching, or listening to? So you give us a little insight as to what we can do to try to become our own Annas besides creating Anabots.
Anna Joo Fee (40:52)
Yeah.
We'll use Goodfin's AI, we call it Go. We actually nickname it G, so we call it like, hey G. But you can use our AI to get super smart, ask it anything, everything, it'll research anything for you. Beyond that, I will say some things that I love in addition to your podcast Slava. Michael Sitchmore is a great one on all some brings in great guests more on the private equity and kind of wealth side, but very relevant for us and super interesting.
I, you know, the big kind of like bloggers, fintech bloggers. I love Simon Taylor. And then, you know, not Levine, of course, is everybody's favorite. Sonali Balsek, I think she's now at iCapital Network. So I love her content. But really.
I find like there's actually so much out there now, so much noise too, and it's like just feels so noisy every day and the market's quite volatile right now. Surprisingly, LinkedIn, I feel like curates a lot of stuff for me. It's not like the moment had, there's a delay, there's a lag, but just because my network will write about things that are relevant. so interestingly, I feel like I...
Slava Rubin (42:05)
Sure.
Anna Joo Fee (42:13)
go on LinkedIn a lot these days. And that's part of why, just because I feel like whatever my network is talking about tends to rise to the top. And so that's been a little bit of a surprise because I used to go more to direct to news, but sometimes I don't need to.
Slava Rubin (42:29)
Perfect.
Our final segment, everybody wants to know your predictions. So we're looking for two picks, and it's picked for three years now. One public markets pick and one non-public markets pick. I imagine it'll be a pre-IPO, but who knows? So first, what's your public markets pick and why?
Anna Joo Fee (42:37)
Mm-hmm. Mmm.
So my public markets pick today, so I guess like SpaceX can't be that because I do think it could be public for years, but it would probably be Google right now and I think huge 25 and kind of like came out not in the you know from from behind and really I think now you see the strength of all their like research and foundational work as well as their like
Slava Rubin (43:00)
which had a huge 25.
Anna Joo Fee (43:16)
course, massive distribution and what they do so well. So I think, you know, as of today, that that would be the one I would, I would pick on the public side. I think we're going to see huge differences in movement, to be honest, in the Magnificent Seven. I mean, it could be eight, nine or 10, but like, I do think that the big players, you know, they're all in the AI game. There's a lot of massive spend or they have a lot of
you know, distribution and advantages. And I think, you know, directionally that that's not really going to change or should. Private, I personally like the things that are like, not, you know, again, like everyone knows OpenAI now might IPO very soon. So thinking about things that could be like the next OpenAI or the next just a little bit under, but you know, maybe not like super, super early to people in a basement. I mentioned it already, but Erebor is sort of
one I'm watching that was co-founded by Palmer Luckey founder of Anduril And it's really like the Innovation Economy Bank is, and they already have a conditional OCC charter, which is really hard to get. So they've got a regulatory start and moat already. Certainly they know the sectors and how to service their target clients, which are really like crypto defense.
the kinds of like tech companies that would need a lot of financing or bespoke or kind of like non-traditional things that legacy banks are not really filling is their angle. And they're still, you know, relatively, I mean, still in the billions, but they're still relatively early, or they are early, but they're still, you know, pretty expensive at 4 billion, but not given where they could go. So that's sort of the angle there.
Slava Rubin (44:59)
I love
this pick. It's the first time we've had it, which I love first time picks. Yes. Congratulations. You are the first one to pick Erebor. So just give us just a little bit more for the audience. started by Palmer Luckey This is really like an innovative fintech play. Just give us a little bit more information. ⁓
Anna Joo Fee (45:04)
⁓ cool! Yeah. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
It is a fintech play.
again, like fintech, feel like has got its like, you know, exciting players and, and really it's, it's a bank that is going to be like kind of crypto native and built to serve other crypto and blockchain companies, as well as sectors that are really like big and growing right now, but require banking services and financial services like defense companies and startups.
I'm sure like robotics and other kind of like AI more broadly companies fit within that. But the idea is that like, you know, banking is also going to see a new wave. Right. And I think like we're just on the cusp and they probably had some friendly political
help there as well to get the charter. But look, that's why from an investment perspective, I think that it's been a good bet and it's still very early, right? Like they've just raised like a second round of external funding. It's like about four, a little over 4 billion. So again, not without risk, definitely like in that risky bucket, like most of these things are, but potential upside, you know, much bigger than I would say like a super late stage mature company where like
there's only so much more it can go.
Slava Rubin (46:35)
love it. We have covered so much information from you starting out saying that you were a lawyer that just had the bug that had to start doing new company. You started out with ⁓ liquidly but here you are now with Goodfin. You share with some of your background in terms of how you like to invest. You are more than the average bearer allocated into the private ⁓ assets, which is awesome. Mostly pre IPO 90 % in various flavors. And then a Birkin bag here or there really Chanel. ⁓
Anna Joo Fee (46:48)
Hmm.
haha
Yeah
Slava Rubin (47:02)
And then you talk to us about your opinions on the market, which is awesome. You see no recession, 25 to 50 basis cuts, in terms of the points, flat inflation, slightly up on job uncertainty and the markets you think will just be traditional a little bit more than 8%. You told us about Goodfin and really the fact that you need to be accredited. There's different tiers of how you could get in. Lots of exciting deals, over 80 deals already and you have thousands of investors, which is awesome. You really curate who you work with.
Really the market is very exciting for 2026. It's been ramping up for the last 18 months for you, but you know, there's the AI, there's the space, there's a lot of exciting areas. Traditional SaaS is struggling, Fintech is struggling, unless again, it's your pick at the end here. 26 could be very exciting. Maybe SpaceX doesn't get out. That was a hot take, but maybe Stripe does get out. Also a hot take. You didn't say either, but those are the hot takes to look out for. But there's a lot of excitement. By the end of 27, hopefully everybody will be happy. It was lots of good content.
Anna Joo Fee (47:51)
Thank
Right.
Slava Rubin (48:01)
to look at, to listen at, and the special one was LinkedIn. I think a lot of people are noticing that they're using a lot more LinkedIn. And finally, your two picks for three years out. Don't mess with Google. We thought OpenAI was gonna crush them, but here they are coming back with their massive distribution. And the first one ever to tell us about Erebor Palmer Luckey's new company. He's already done it once with Oculus. He's doing it again with Anduril Now the bet he's becoming Elon Musk V2. So it's four billion if you wanna get in.
Anna Joo Fee (48:12)
Hahaha
Yeah.
Slava Rubin (48:30)
Thank you very much, Anna.
Anna Joo Fee (48:33)
Well said Slava, this was so fun. Thank you.
